Thursday, June 17, 2010

Countdown to DVD Release - Favorite Quotes

Quote #5



"Michael, Caroline asked me what I would say if I knew you could hear me. I said I do know. I love you. God, I miss you. And I forgive you".
~Tyler

11 comments:

jessegirl said...

Well, this was always part of Tyler's mission, if you will, this, and breaking down Charles' wall. These are the supposedly insignificant things Tyler accomplishes before he dies, the things 'it's important that you do them'. And are they not the last words of the movie? It all ends there. The disembodied voice reaching out beyond death. And what more is there to say? Well, if I knew Tyler--yes, yes, a fictional character--I would say: 'I hope you can hear me. I love you. I miss you. And I forgive you.

InstantKarmaGirl said...

Oh my god, this breaks me unbreakable heart and brings the tears back to my eyes.

soozy said...

I've got a lump in my throat at this line.

To me, he's come full circle. He's finally found peace. Enough said.

WhyIstheRumAlwaysGone said...

It breaks my heart too. Because when hear this line we know he has found some sort of peace, come to terms with Michael and his family, but we also know he's gone forever. There's this zoom on his diary in the ashes. Just remembering this makes me so sad.

LTavares2010 said...

"Michael, Caroline asked me what I would say if I knew you could hear me. I said I do know. I love you. God, I miss you. And I forgive you".
~Tyler

Beautiful moment! This scene ruined me. I had seen Michael`s name tattooed in Tyler`s chest, right near his heart and I began to cry. In the end when I listened to this, the force of these words were powerful. They impressed me, the way Tyler looks through the window as if he was looking at us. Terrific! I confess I just could only think that now Michael was with him again. Peace.

jessegirl said...

LTavares, thanks for reminding us Tyler is with Michael now! In my pain I forgot that.
And Tyler at the window, 'looking at us'. Oh dear, don't start us crying again.

InstantKarmaGirl said...

See? This "I forgive you" part?
This is where my theory about Tyler really being angry at Michael is validated.

He takes it out on Charles with angry words and action and his mother with his cold indifference, but he's really mad at Michael.

Michael ended his own life. Michael did it in a way that would forever affect Tyler. Tyler found him.

My personal views on suicide are intense for many reasons and while I don't think it's wrong to make the decisions you feel you have to make, it's incredibly selfish to do it in a way that is going to wound other people.

Tyler, a teenager, found his beloved brother, his friend, the person he counted on HANGING.

Imagine what that was like for him. Imagine being incapable of handling the emotions that coincide with that. Imagine loving someone so much and then finding them dead at their own hand.

Michael CHOSE that. He chose it over Tyler and the rest of his family.

For whatever the reason, Michael did it to himself and he did it to those who loved him.

I'd be mad too.

His anger is justified and it saddens me that he had to carry this sadness and anger for so long. It wasn't in death that he was able to forgive his brother, it was in love, when he found something pure, such as the love of a stranger (ally) and the realization that his father, while emotionally stunted, DID love him.

jessegirl said...

Oh, Karma, for whatever personal reason, you've hinted at how traumatic a suicide is for you. And everything you say is right. I'm so sorry for whatever brought you such sad and angry thoughts. This type of tragedy has brushed my life as well, perhaps not in the same way. I only say that to help you understand these comments, because, like you, I will not disclose some things on the internet.
Please, Karma, bear with me while I explain my take. I do agree with you but my perspective is a bit different. Take all the following as IMHO.

First of all, yes, yes, yes, Tyler has all along been really and justifiably angry at his brother for leaving him. But I think his issues with his father and mother--well, we've discussed them at length on other posts--are also real and do not have Michael at their core. Probably most of them spring from Michael's suicide but in this way, how everyone deals with it (for example, Diane's clinginess and Charles' aloofness. And some issues, I’m sure, can’t be left at Michael’s door. We don’t know enough about the Hawkins’ to know what they might be.

Now suicides in general: Well, some spring from mental illnesses like bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia and there is a physical chemical brain imbalance causes the victim of the disease to behave in uncharacteristic ways, and sometimes the pain of it makes the person out of his mind and he kills himself. He might not even know what he’s doing. Just as Tyler disregards so many other people in his life and allows so few in because of his grief, so too, it is possible Michael felt such unrelenting psychic pain that he wasn’t thinking of anything but escape from it. We have no indication that Michael had a mental illness though.

In the sense that the family members of a suicide have an extra dollop of grief because of the intent involved in the death, blaming the person who killed himself for being selfish makes sense. He left you. He decided to leave you, instead of asking for help. He was only thinking of escape and not of his loved ones. ‘Survivors’ feel rejection and abandonment. Were they not good enough for their loved one to stay on earth for?
All those things set up the grieving family to feel more anger and to, then, need to forgive the loved dead one for his selfish action. And, as we’ve discussed at length elsewhere, the ‘survivors’ now feel guilt as well, because they wonder what they could have done differently that could have saved him. That is big. And it is a lot of what Tyler, Charles and Diane deal with. They feel guilty.

So enormous negative feelings which grab them at their core—rejection, abandonment, guilt, anger, sorrow—all roil around inside every family member. And each deals with those feelings differently. And all have to come to terms with those feelings and all have to forgive. I think forgiveness is possibly the hardest thing we do in life, and the most elevating to the human condition. So, Tyler’s journey was always dependent on that. I admire him so much because I know how hard it is.

People bandy around the idea of forgiveness as if it comes easily. I hear it all the time. “You have to learn to forgive.” Even Aiden almost demanded it of Ally. There has to be perceived remorse and atonement on the part of the guilty party first, because without that, it is meaningless. You can’t forgive someone who hasn’t asked for it.
This makes Tyler’s forgiveness of his brother so much more difficult. No note was left so we don’t know if Michael might have said something before he died, telling Tyler how much he loved him, or something. When I say ‘perceived’ remorse, I think Tyler had to think that Michael was sorry, in death, for what he did, how he’d hurt his loved ones. Tyler had to imagine his brother saying: “I’m sorry. Please forgive me.” He had to imagine this before he could say the penultimate line in the movie: “And I forgive you.”

jessegirl said...

Karma,
I'm sorry I went on and on just then.
All of it is 'in my Humble opinion'.
And both of us acknowledged mental illness suicides in a previous post, so I didn't mean to imply you didn't know all that.

I just love discussing this movie, and go on and on. :)

Hey, it's Father's Day! Let's hear it for Charles and Neil!

InstantKarmaGirl said...

Jesse,
This is where the problem lies, you CAN'T get angry, mad, upset with someone who chose to end their life because 9 out of 10 times there's some kind of chemical imbalance/mental health issue. So how do you get pissed at a dead person who was sick?

You can't...not without being what society deems as an asshole.

So where does that anger, frustration, pain go? It goes inside of the person feeling it, the person left behind.

What do they do with that? Some people are very healthy with their processing of emotion and it's usually because someone external is there to help, but suicide creates a web of pain that extends outward and its effects are lasting.

Tyler couldn't go to his father or his mother because they were in incredible pain, no matter how they dealt with it). Pretty much the only person he had to go to was Caroline, who was what? five or so at the time? She couldn't understand what was going on at that point, so he took everything he had within himself and poured it into her...giving her all the good in him and saving none to nurture himself.

I have to wonder if Tyler ever tried to talk about Michael to his father before the boardroom scene. I wonder if Tyler was ever able to have an INTELLECTUAL not EMOTIONAL conversation with his mother about his brother.

I highly doubt it.

Tyler was left alone to process his emotions and he had no idea how. He focused good on his sister but left the hard, painful emotions to fester.

I agree with what you say about the remorse that has to be granted to Michael and that Tyler had to learn to forgive when it wasn't asked of him. I agree with all of that.

I also agree that some of his issues with Diane and Charles aren't because of Michael, however, I feel that any "normal" issues for a young person like Tyler with his parents have been heightened because of the tragedy.

Tyler found him.

That's not easy to deal with. That's not easy to forget. That's not easy to forgive.

For whatever reason, Michael killed himself. And he did it in a way in which would leave his brother open to being a witness. There are other ways to end your existence that doesn't involve your kid brother walking in to your lifeless body hanging.

That is where my selfishness comment comes from. I understand he was sick. I understand that people who are emotionally distraught can't all the time think about things like that, but this is what I feel is at the core of Tyler's problems.

But the beauty of life is that once you've experienced something like the pure love of someone who doesn't have to love you, who can leave at any time, anger fades, resentment fades, and you can slowly open yourself up to that which you've closed yourself.

Jesse- no worries. I know we're just having a discussion. It's a sharing of ideas and thoughts and I don't expect everyone to think just like I do.

jessegirl said...

Karma...
You have explained more fully what Tyler's problem might be. And I do agree with you. All of what you've said shows me that you really understand the depth and breadth of Tyler's problem, how all-encompassing it is, how difficult to resolve when the person you are mad at is gone. (I know I have some of those issues myself and maybe that's why this film is so important to me??) The pain becomes internalized so that you become the walking wounded, as Tyler is throughout much of the film.
The fact that Tyler found the dead body of his brother, that Michael had not used a way and a place which would spare Tyler this trauma, is something you have pointed out before. That was a selfish and self-centered way for Michael to deal with it. The more you say, the more I realize how difficult it must have been for Tyler to make his journey and the more admiration I have for him at the end.

And Ally too. As you said, and I tend to forget this, Ally's love made it possible for Tyler to deal with these issues in a constructive way, to open himself to love again. She is so central to all of this. And they didn't every hurry into the relationship; they seemed to make sure of things first.

Oh damn, the more I think of what could have been had Tyler lived, the sadder I get. You know, his future, marriage, kids, something wonderful with books, etc. It's like my son. If I think of what he could be enjoying and doing now, but can't, I stop myself quickly, close the box of pain. Maybe that's more where Diane's mind would go. Oh, I can't fathom Diane's monumental pain after Tyler dies. It is too much.

But Karma, you're the best. Thank you so much for delving into this with me.
xo

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